tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post6456712740741347509..comments2024-03-27T13:20:39.780-04:00Comments on The Closet Professor: Who Decides What’s Right or Wrong?Joehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-9424294371757869632011-08-06T00:59:14.338-04:002011-08-06T00:59:14.338-04:00Naturgesetz: You state on your own blog, "I a...Naturgesetz: You state on your own blog, "I accept the teachings of the Catholic Church on homosexuality, and I hope to help people understand what those teachings are and are not. I offer my story and my views for purposes of discussion among people of faith and people of good will. I hope to be thought-provoking, respectful, and illuminating and so to be helpful to you on your way." I wholeheartedly agree that your arguments and discussion of homosexuality are thought-provoking, and I do hope that you will see my disagreement with you as respectful.<br /><br />One of the obvious problems here, (and though you may take offense to this, it is not meant to be offensive) is that we are having an argument that has essentially been fought since 1519. It is an argument over Catholic interpretation of the Bible and Protestant interpretation of the Bible. As a member of the Church of Christ, I believe that the Bible speaks to me in a more personal way than Catholic dogma says that it should. That being said, let me refute some of your arguments in the comments above.<br /><br />You use various English translations of the Bible that all have inherent problems. If you look at the changes in the words used in these translations you do not get a more scholarly opinion of the words, but instead get the prejudices of the translators.<br /><br />Furthermore, you state "If the scholars White cites were right that Paul considers arsenokoitai the customers of the malakoi then both words should appear in 1 Timothy as they do in 1 Corinthians. The appearance of arsenokoitai alone in 1 Timothy indicates that it and malakoi are not simply the two parties to the same transaction." I believe that the reason he did not use both words when writing to Timothy is because there would not have been a need to be more explicit with Timothy since Timothy was both with Paul in Corinth and would have been quite familiar with the writings of Paul. The Epistles of Timothy are written to add further instruction to Timothy.<br /><br />Just so that you do not mistake me for agreeing with your last comment about adultery, I do disagree with you that the meaning of the verse in Leviticus can't be restricted to adultery. Hebrew is an imprecise language in which one word can have several meanings. Likewise, the Septuagint was written by Hellenistic Jews who also had doctrinal differences from the Jews of Judea and Babylonian Jews of the time that it was influenced the Greek words they used in their Septuagint translation. For at least the last three millennia, there have been disagreements over the interpretations of God's word, and I do not see this as changing, no matter how much Catholicism wishes it to, until Christ himself returns and is able to set the record straight once and for all. That being said, we will just have to agree to disagree as a homosexual Protestant to a homosexual Catholic. I think that we should agree that we are both Christians who interpret the word of God differently. My personal relationship with God leads me to believe that I am correct, whereas your relationship with God obviously says the opposite.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-52831398949956049122011-08-06T00:01:05.898-04:002011-08-06T00:01:05.898-04:00"One final statement, the word koite often re..."One final statement, the word koite often renders 'marriage bed' not just 'bed.' It is unmistakeable that Lev. 18:22 is contrasting the use of 'arsenos' (not andros) with that of 'gunaikos' (not thelus). It is forbidding a husband to sleep with a *male* on the bed of his wife, a specification of adultery, not a general condemnation of homosexual behavior."<br /><br />The question, of course, is not precisely what Lev 18:22 is saying, but what St. Paul meant when he coined a word which had those two elements in it.<br /><br />That said, I think the more specific possible meaning of "marriage bed" actually reinforces the point that it's about engaging in sex. But since <i>gunaikos</i> refers to "a woman, married or unmarried" (Manual Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Abbott-Smith) the meaning of the verse in Leviticus can't be restricted to adultery.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-49626925889714512562011-08-05T23:49:11.914-04:002011-08-05T23:49:11.914-04:00The reason that I said "word, not words"...The reason that I said "word, not words" is that, unlike <i>arsenokoitai, malakoi</i> is not exclusive to Paul.<br /><br />I went back and looked at the post you linked. You write, "No one has really ever known what to make of the Greek word arsenokoitai that Paul seems to have originally came up with. The exact meaning of this word is lost. It seems to have been a term created by Paul for this verse. Rick Brentlinger, of GayChristian101.com, says: <br />Arseno is the Greek word for man and koite is the Greek word for bed, used euphemistically to mean having sex. We say 'he slept with her' when we mean, had sex with her. In the same way, koite-bed was a euphemism for having sex.<br />It does seem to be a compound word in which the original meaning has been lost to us."<br />It seems to me that what Brentlinger writes makes it obvious: arseno means man (or male) and koite is a euphemism for sex. The inescapable conclusion is that it's about men engaging in sex.<br /><br />One can argue whether it is more clearly translated, "abusers of themselves with mankind" (KJV), "liers with mankind" (Rheims), "homosexual offenders" (NIV), or any of the other translations. IMO the major problem with "homosexuals" as a translation is that the word can mean one who has a homosexual orientation or one who engages in sexual activity with someone of the same sex. IOW, "homosexual" is ambiguous, whereas the Greek word clearly refers only to people who engage in certain sexual activity. And as I said above, "The obvious conclusion is that it's about men engaging in sex."<br /><br />If the scholars White cites were right that Paul considers <i>arsenokoitai</i> the customers of the <i>malakoi</i> then both words should appear in 1 Timothy as they do in 1 Corinthians. The appearance of <i>arsenokoitai</i> alone in 1 Timothy indicates that it and <i>malakoi</i> are not simply the two parties to the same transaction.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-92051504745599974072011-08-05T22:40:54.545-04:002011-08-05T22:40:54.545-04:00Naturgesetz: First of all, these are the arguments...Naturgesetz: First of all, these are the arguments put forth by Jimmy Creech in his book "Adam's Gift." I did not go into further explanation about the word(s) used by St. Paul, because I had done so in a previous post(http://closetprofessor.blogspot.com/2011/06/abusus-non-tollit-usum.html). Paul does in fact use two different words: “Malakois” and “Arsenokoitai.” In that previous post, I explain what that “Malakois” is used in reference to young male prostitutes and that Greek scholars don’t know exactly what “Arsenokoitai” means — and the fact that we don’t know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of “the effeminate call boys.” We might call them “dirty old men.” Others translate the word as “sodomites,” but never explain what that means.<br /><br />I see your point that it could have come from the Septuagint translation, and I thank you for bringing that to my attention. However if taken into the context of what he is writing and to whom, I do believe that he is discussing male prostitution and their clients. The fact, which I do not believe is misleading, is that homosexuality in the modern sense was not understood in the ancient world by St. Paul, nor was it understood by Thomas Aquinas.<br /><br />One final statement, the word koite often renders "marriage bed" not just "bed." It is unmistakeable that Lev. 18:22 is contrasting the use of "arsenos" (not andros) with that of "gunaikos" (not thelus). It is forbidding a husband to sleep with a *male* on the bed of his wife, a specification of adultery, not a general condemnation of homosexual behavior.<br /><br />Thank you for your comment.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-31935460827231817012011-08-05T21:28:27.887-04:002011-08-05T21:28:27.887-04:00Forgot to say that koite means "bed."Forgot to say that <i>koite</i> means "bed."naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-321487247139339102011-08-05T21:26:31.322-04:002011-08-05T21:26:31.322-04:00"Can you explain how the word 'homosexual...<i>"Can you explain how the word 'homosexual' is misused in Biblical texts?<br />In First Corinthians and First Timothy, the Apostle Paul used Greek words that no one else had ever used – either before him or after him. These words came to be associated with homosexuality in the late 13th Century after Thomas Aquinas condemned same-sex sexual acts in his writings. From then on, the Greek words in these two passages were understood to mean, a 'man who has sex with a man.' Because there was no Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words (the three languages in which the Bible was written) for a 'man who has sex with a man,' the term Sodomite was invented. It is often found in translations, but has no basis in the languages of the Bible – it’s purely an example of bigotry written into those translations after the fact."</i><br /><br />This is highly misleading, if not downright dishonest. The word (not words) that appears only in these passages is <i>arsenokoitai</i> , and although it may be true that it only appears in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, that is not the end of the story. The word is a compound of two Greek words, <i>arsen</i>, which means "male," and <i>koite</i>, and these words are found in the Septuagint translation of Leviticus 18:22, which Paul knew: "<i>kai meta <b>arsenos</b> ou koimethese <b>koiten</b> gunaikos</i>." I don't see how anybody can seriously argue that St. Paul didn't have in mind exactly the same thing Leviticus is talking about, when he took the two words from Leviticus and made a single word of them. I think it must be obvious to any unbiased reader that when St. Paul says <i>aresnokoitai</i> he means men who have sex with men.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-80246680009286338972011-08-01T23:47:59.602-04:002011-08-01T23:47:59.602-04:00You're welcome, becca. Anyone who is as sweet...You're welcome, becca. Anyone who is as sweet as you deserves all the kindness in the world.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-69387016179436628652011-08-01T19:30:53.996-04:002011-08-01T19:30:53.996-04:00thank you for youe kind wordsthank you for youe kind wordsRebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213055916162799647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-17152126786518170642011-08-01T12:55:50.963-04:002011-08-01T12:55:50.963-04:00Schweigsame, it is sad that so many fundamentalist...Schweigsame, it is sad that so many fundamentalist religious leaders give religion such a bad name. Instead of being anti-life, destructive and detrimental to the rights and dignity of human beings, I have always believed that they should be life-affirming and promote the rights and dignity of human beings. I don't believe that all organized religion is a great plague on humanity, but I do think that too many fundamentalist religious leaders who take a stance that it is their way or the highway to Hell, are one of the greatest plagues on humanity. It is too bad that they are often the face of Christianity. What so many misunderstand is that the Bible was written in a way to speak to the individual. It is purposely vague in some areas. Besides, these fundamentalists forget that Jesus said that the Greatest Commandment is LOVE.<br /><br />I was raised Church of Christ, which is about as far from liberal Christian as you can get. I still am a member of the Church of Christ because my church congregation is one that is life-affirming and promote the rights and dignity of human beings. <br /><br />Thanks for your comment.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-36599500988793567272011-08-01T10:33:57.759-04:002011-08-01T10:33:57.759-04:00"Liberal" Christianity can try and sugar..."Liberal" Christianity can try and sugar coat what they're selling (or--more accurately--what they're trying to sell, since fewer and fewer people are buying it these days) but the fact remains that 99% of what is preached under the label "Christianity" is anti-life, destructive and detrimental to the rights and dignity of human beings.<br /><br />I was raised in a Fundamentalist Christian home and was very involved with a much more liberal church for years as a young adult, even seriously considered becoming an Episcopal minister for a while. But the older I get, the more convinced I become that any organized religion is one of the great plagues on humanity.Schweigsamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15909893698697400371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-86020557625277447222011-07-31T23:58:55.000-04:002011-07-31T23:58:55.000-04:00Dean, I think that doing the best we can is what w...Dean, I think that doing the best we can is what we should do. If you are interested in the topic, you can click on the religion tag and see all of my posts on the subject. I think the main thing to focus on is God's love, the rest is up to interpretation. Thanks for your comments.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-41473593947713483382011-07-31T22:55:51.328-04:002011-07-31T22:55:51.328-04:00JoeBlow!
Well, I'm gay and while not a devout...<b>JoeBlow!</b><br /><br />Well, I'm gay and while not a devout Christian, I was raised Catholic and still try to do the best I can.<br /><br />Sometimes we have to ignore the "bad parts" of the bible and focus on the loving parts instead.<br /><br />Sounds like a good philosophy for life!<br /><br />-DeanDean Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014573083751127043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-60397679443718268112011-07-31T22:41:38.537-04:002011-07-31T22:41:38.537-04:00Becca, life is an experienced where we learn somet...Becca, life is an experienced where we learn something new everyday. As I read in a book not too long ago, "Churches have been filled with hypocrites since before the time of Christ." Religious authorities have always bent religion to their needs.<br /><br />One thing more that I want to tell you is this, God does not punish us in this life. You are most certainly not being punished, and from what I have seen and read from you, I think you are a wonderful loving woman, friend, mother, and wife. I can't fathom how anyone could judge you and say that are being punished. Anyone who says that does not understand the nature of God and his love. Thanks as always for your comment, Becca.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-33576926364599719322011-07-31T21:33:37.482-04:002011-07-31T21:33:37.482-04:00once again i read your post and learn more then i ...once again i read your post and learn more then i thouhgt i could though some of it i don't understand i love that i can still learn. part of the reason i no longer go to church is because i get so annoyed at how people bend the bible to fit whatever they feel is wrong. i mean i've been told many times that the reason i am dying is because i'm being punished. which is fine just please tell me what it is that i did that was so wrong becuase i can't seem to remember. anyways thank you once again for a great post i am going back to reread it several more times so i really get the whole meaning..hugsRebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213055916162799647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-42493395247716619992011-07-31T20:54:30.393-04:002011-07-31T20:54:30.393-04:00M@rvin, I am going to have to look into 'The R...M@rvin, I am going to have to look into 'The Rise and Fall of the Bible.' It sounds like an interesting book. Thanks for the suggestion.<br /><br />Thanks, Jay. I do believe that some day it will all be moot. I love the gay marriage sign that says "Jesus hung out with 12 guys and a prostitute. He was more like me than you.' LOL. One day these people will realize just how true that is.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05299122685163501819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-42500968382452744682011-07-31T15:32:18.691-04:002011-07-31T15:32:18.691-04:00Super post! It's a shame that the "govern...Super post! It's a shame that the "governing body" of Jimmy Creech's "church" can't see the reality of this research.<br /><br />Some day, one day, it will all be moot.<br /><br />Peace <3<br />JayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5356114186987252972.post-80853809064138923022011-07-31T15:16:36.744-04:002011-07-31T15:16:36.744-04:00Apparently, even the word 'abomination' is...Apparently, even the word 'abomination' is a sort of mistranslation. So sayeth the (still Christian) author of 'The Rise and Fall of the Bible' (cf. p. 59), Timothy Beal, anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com